Interview with Robbie Banfitch, Writer/Director of The Outwaters

Writer/Director/lead actor Robbie Banfitch was kind enough to sit down with Co-Editor Violet Burns to talk about his wild new found footage film The Outwaters, which was by far her favorite feature at this year’s Chattanooga Film Festival. The film follows a group of young creatives into a remote part of the Mojave Desert to film a music video, and the shoot soon devolves into unimaginable horror. The less you know going into this film, the better, but I will say that it’s a powerful sensory experience and one of the best new found footage films in recent memory. 

The Outwaters is still on the festival circuit, but we’ll hopefully get some good news about a US release sometime this year.

The following is a transcript of our spoiler-free conversation: 

Violet: What are you scared of? What kinds of horror films really get under your skin?

Robbie: I consider myself scared by a movie if I get chills and if I find myself glancing over to make sure the door is locked. Not just jump scares–even though they're fun, that’s a different kind of thing. There aren’t many horror movies which truly get under my skin in that way, but a few are Event Horizon, The Changeling, the Blair Witch Project— they're all fairly different, but they create that creeping, uneasy feeling. 

Violet: Your answer actually makes a lot of sense, given that you made a film that's such an atmospheric experience. It's really based more on feeling than narrative.

Robbie: Yeah, I wanted it to be. If it's found footage, I want it to feel authentically found and disorienting, for you to be thrust into it and only be able to make sense of it through what you're watching and not necessarily have a complete picture of everything that’s going on. Everything that happened to these people, every conversation, would not be present on the memory cards, so there are intentionally a lot of blanks to fill in.

Violet: So I was reading some reviews of your film, and I saw a suggestion that you’d broken some cardinal rules of found footage, but I don’t actually think you did at all!

Robbie: I only saw the one review that said I had non-diegetic music, right?

Violet: Mm-hmm.

Robbie: Inaccurate. All the music that plays in the movie is being listened to by the characters. And there are no “montages'' in the film. But to be fair, I could see how two of the scenes can feel like a montage, even though they aren’t. And I can see how the music, even though it’s cut from shot to shot, sounds pretty seamless.

Violet: Mm-hmm! it does.

Robbie: So I can see how that critic might have thought that, but, alas, all the music is in-world.

Violet: There's a moment in the road trip sequence where someone—maybe you— sings along a little bit to the music, and that confirmed for me that this is an in-world song.

Robbie:  And I sang along specifically to make sure that it wasn't confused. I mean, it's subtle, but, you know, if there's a song you like in the car, you tend to sing along with it. So that was the first scene in the car where we're driving. I sang because A) that's what I normally do and B) because I did want the audience to know it's being played from car speakers.

Robbie: I think pretty much everybody got that or, or didn't even think about the sound in that way. You know what I mean?

Violet: Yeah! It was a really cool way to incorporate a soundtrack into found footage, which usually doesn’t have that element. And it’s a way to have that rich audio experience without pulling you out of the world of the film. 

Violet:  Your film also has so many beautifully framed, just aesthetically gorgeous shots, which is also unusual for found footage. But you managed to do that in a way that makes sense: he’s a guy who's a videographer, and he's playing around with the camera. He’d naturally be drawn to these...moving still life shots of the light fixtures or the water moving. 

Robbie: Thank you. You know, much like the character, I've been filming stuff since I was about ten. And even when I would take my camcorder to high school back in the day, I was framing things like an art kid: people are talking at the lunch table, and I zoom in on someone playing with a wisp of their hair. I love focusing on little details. 

So I thought it would be a good opportunity to try to make a really beautiful looking found footage movie but have the attempt at beauty be organic and imperfect.

Violet: Which is so amazing because people always give found footage so much shit for being poorly shot. And this film just shows that it doesn't have to be.

Robbie: Aw, thanks! I'm glad that you like the cinematography. I love shooting. So to be able to do found footage and have total freedom with the camera is awesome. I kept in mind all the films I love cinematography-wise, like Terrence Malick’s movies and ‘Bright Star” by Jane Campion. I love her attention to detail.

Violet: You could tell that it was a labor of love and that everyone on set really enjoyed being part of the process.

Robbie: Yeah. Our relationships to each other are the same in real life, except Scott's not my actual brother, but he's like my brother. 

Violet: You could definitely tell, which is super cool. Could you walk me through the process of making the film? Because I think I remember from your previous interview that you didn't write very much down, you started with some images. So how did you get from concept images to creating this narrative?

Robbie: I love the original Blair Witch Project so much, and I like Paranormal Activity and all that, and I enjoy plenty of found footage movies, but most of them don’t feel like authentic home movies to me. But right after I saw Willow Creek I got inspired. I'm like, all right, it’s still possible to make a found footage film that feels really authentically found. I’ve always wanted to make one, but not until I had a good enough idea.

Robbie: After I saw Willow Creek, I started thinking about what kind of found footage movie I could make. "Outland" is one of my favorite words. And there's the Outland movie with Sean Connery… a science fiction movie. And I love the title and I thought "Outwaters" has a really evocative ring to it.. I took that word and explored the images that started coming to me. And then there's the practical side, which is like—I don't have any money, how can I do this? What can I make with the backends of my non-profit paychecks?

Robbie: And who would I want to be in it? So choosing who among my friends was available and might mesh well.. That's how I started coming up with the story. So it was organic and practical, but mostly it all started with the word Outwaters..

Violet: That's really cool. Thank you.

Robbie: No problem. So, yeah, so I started thinking about it. Once I get hooked on a film idea of something I wanna make - see I’m always thinking about different movies I wanna make, and then one of them will start to take precedence, and so the Outwaters took precedence, and it became clear that this was something I could do and wanted to do, and thought I could do something unique with, and hopefully do something genuinely scary with. And so once I'm really set on a movie, then it's like a flood of ideas and images and, and I'm taking notes, but the notes...they do not look like a script. So it's maybe like 10 pages of random things, like "light in the sky" and "ax in the ground.” I have all the shots and the story in my head.

But with this movie I went out and did the main shoot. Then after I came back and edited, I thought of new ideas and went out and did like ten more shoots. It's pretty easy to get out to the desert. So it's finally done. I just was shooting last week, replacing a shot.

And there's a new little moment you haven't seen yet. Being able to just go out and make a movie with my friends by myself - if the film didn't feel good enough, then I could go make it better. You know what I mean? But I'm very happy with it now. Everything that's in the movie now I'm good with, and I don't want to shoot anymore.

Violet: So you think you're finally finished with it? 

Robbie: I'm definitely finished shooting, and it's basically the same exact movie you saw, except it'll have like, maybe 20 more seconds, which are just a couple different shots, like little moments, but not a full scene or anything. But yeah, it's done. And I'm still playing with the sound design a little bit, but that's almost finished as well. And that won't change much at all from what you saw either. 

Violet: The sound design is absolutely dynamite in this film. Like it is so good! I don't get scared (by movies) very easily, but I was about to have a little panic attack when I was watching the last act in the dark. Just hearing your character kind of regress, with the whimpering, was so scary. How did you get yourself into that character? 

Robbie: I don't know; I don't consider myself an actor. So for that stuff, I just kind of did it, and if it felt phony, then I would do it again.

I just would go into a scene like, all right, this needs to be done.  And I could hear how it sounded, and if it sounded disturbing and raw enough, then it worked. Actually, I was inspired by Alex Wolff’s performance-- not that I'm comparing myself to Alex Wolff-- but I was inspired by his performance in Hereditary. The scene where he broke down and started crying after the seance. I just don’t see that very often from a male character in a horror movie. And so I took the whimpering and crying and vulnerability and ran with that. Plus it just made organic sense that I would be in and out of that state of mind, you know?

And I cut a lot of stuff out that felt phony. I would say like 40% of my performance wasn't working for me as a director.

Violet: You'd never know!

Robbie: I mean, it's also a little silly. I'm like running around, covered in blood naked in the desert, whimpering, you know. It was a little absurd, in the moment.

Violet: I would imagine that there was a lot of improvisation on set. How did you focus that improvisation as a director?

Robbie: Well, my plan was to just go drive to the desert and do the actual road trip and just film it like I would’ve with my friends in high school. So I knew I wanted it to feel like an actual slice of life road trip with no real deep drama, just film as I would’ve in my own life. So it was pretty easy. I mean, I've seen some reviews that didn't love all of us as characters, but I picked people I found genuinely charismatic in different ways, and unique.  For scenes where I knew something had to be discussed or happen, I would just say, "this has to be said at some point," and we would play around. And, you know, we had nothing but time.

Violet: So did you go with the desert just because it was kind of the most accessible, just visually striking landscape or was there something about the desert that inspired you?

Robbie: Well, I love the original Hills Have Eyes. Yes, that's one of my very favorite vibes, like a burning desert sun, beaten dusty roads, Texas Chainsaw Massacre-y kind of vibe. And I know there are found footage movies in the desert, but I haven't seen many of them. So for me, it was new. Like, ‘oh, it would be cool to do a desert found footage movie.’ I could have made the whole movie take place in New Jersey, or I could have had it done in Hawaii, but I just was feeling the desert thing. Plus my next movie is in the winter woods. So a drastic change, hot desert to winter woods.

Violet: Did you know going into the experience that you wanted to include a sci-fi element?

Robbie: I wanted to explore a particular idea. And I'm not gonna say what happened in the movie. Cause I, you know, I have my own idea of what happened, but for me, the idea of what happened would have to logically involve science fiction or science, so that's where it came in. The idea for the horror element would only be possible with an element of science fiction.

Violet: I was so worried the whole time that something was going to happen in the movie where it was going to reveal too much, but that didn't happen, which I was so happy about. How did you approach the idea of restraint versus revealing?

Robbie: I definitely don't like it when you watch a movie and the ending is so ambiguous that you feel frustrated. So I did want the ending to feel satisfying, even if you don't understand what's going on, but I definitely wanted it to be open for interpretation because there are multiple things that could have happened based on what’s on the memory cards.

But also because you're supposed to be looking at raw footage, and you're supposed to only be able to take from it...what you can see and hear, like the police who would be looking at these tapes. So it’s sort of an investigation.

Violet: With found footage, editing can make or break the entire experience. So what was that journey like for you?

Robbie: Editing is one of my favorite parts of the process. When did I start making this? It's been a three year journey. 

So it's been really fun to be able to keep tweaking it and getting feedback, and you know it's just been a very detailed, detailed process. I just put another two shots in a few days ago. So still editing, but I am pretty sure about the picture-lock being done. I need to watch it a couple more times to be certain. And I just edited at home here, where I'm sitting now. So that's pretty easy as well. And I usually have a stool here for my coffee while I’m editing.

 I can't imagine not editing a movie I made: it's such a huge part of the process for sure.

Violet: Is there anything else that you would like anyone to know about The Outwaters?

Robbie: You can find the soundtrack playlist on Spotify, and I really love all the music on it. It's totally got something for everybody, all kinds of flavors, because the characters listen to different things, but that's a cool thing people can check out.

Also the characters have playlists on Spotify. I wanted each of them to have their own playlist, and then I had some situational playlists, like what Ange and Robbie listened to when they were dancing in the kitchen. You can search for “Ange Bocuzzi and Robbie Zagorac’s Cocaine Party Mix” if you want to listen to the songs the characters listened to the night before they went to the desert.

Violet: And it’s all original music? 

Robbie: Yeah. Most of the music is my music or my friends' music, and then we got two songs from Tim Eriksen, who's actually one of my favorite musicians of all time. He worked on the Cold Mountain soundtrack, and he's just pure and amazing: an ethnomusicologist. And so I know everybody who made the songs except for Tim, although now I guess I know Tim, ‘cause I've been talking to him about the soundtrack. And he helped me out with a public domain question, which was quite nice of him. 

Violet: I'm definitely gonna check these out. Thank you.

Robbie: I wanna start putting the idea out there that it could be fun, not a party game, but it could be a fun experience, if you've already seen The Outwaters, to watch it again and actually blindfold yourself, starting towards like the last 40 minutes of the movie.

And just experience the movie through sound only, with your doors unlocked. It's just a fun, Bloody Mary kind of dare. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to. Although that could be dangerous so maybe keep he doors locked.

Violet: I'm definitely gonna try that now. 

Robbie: And I so appreciate that you waited till dark to watch. I cannot watch a horror movie unless it's dark out. 

Violet: Oh, it's so important.